In the latest episode of the GZERO World Podcast, bestselling author and historian Yuval Noah Harari delves into the transformative power of storytelling, the existential challenges posed by AI, the critical geopolitical stakes of the Ukraine conflict, and the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian situation with Ian Bremmer, while also exploring personal and societal strategies for navigating an era of unprecedented change and advocating for mindfulness and ethical awareness. Harari highlights humanity's unique ability to forge societies through shared stories, which, while unifying, can also seed conflict. This is a special, extended version of their interview, taped live at the 92nd Street Y in NYC and exclusive to podcast listeners.
In the latest episode of the GZERO World Podcast, bestselling author and historian Yuval Noah Harari delves into the transformative power of storytelling, the existential challenges posed by AI, the critical geopolitical stakes of the Ukraine conflict, and the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian situation with Ian Bremmer, while also exploring personal and societal strategies for navigating an era of unprecedented change and advocating for mindfulness and ethical awareness. Harari highlights humanity's unique ability to forge societies through shared stories, which, while unifying, can also seed conflict. This is a special, extended version of their interview, taped live at the 92nd Street Y in NYC and exclusive to podcast listeners.
Ian Bremmer:
Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. This is where you can find extended versions of my interviews on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer, and today we are nearly nine months into the Israel-Hamas War. In that time, around 40,000 Palestinians and over a thousand Israelis have died according to the Israeli army and Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. As always, exact numbers are impossible to verify given limited access to the Gaza Strip. According to the United Nations, 60% of Gazan homes and over 80% of commercial buildings in schools have been destroyed or damaged. The UN also warns that over a million Gazans could face the highest levels of starvation by mid-July if the fighting doesn't end. And war always reserves its harshest punishments for the most vulnerable. With UNICEF reporting that nine out of every 10 Gazan children lack the nutrition needed for proper growth.
Joining me today with the Palestinian perspective is Riyad Mansour, the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations. He's a Palestinian-American himself, the son of an Ohio steel worker, and says that this moment in the Middle East is the most significant period of transformation in his decades of representing the Palestinian people on the global stage. And here's our conversation.
Ambassador Riyad Mansour, thanks so much for joining us today.
Riyad Mansour:
I'm happy that you have me.
Ian Bremmer:
So, I want to first introduce you a little bit to our audience as not only the representative of the Palestinian authority here in the United Nations, but also as someone who grew up here in the United States. A little bit on your background I think would be great.
Riyad Mansour:
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. And I am officially the representative of the State of Palestine at the UN. I am the ambassador of the State of Palestine to the United Nations. Often some American media outfits, they prefer to introduce me as a representative of the Palestinian Authority, but I am representative of the bigger thing, which is the State of Palestine.
But be that as it may, I have been in this post for a relatively long time and I am satisfied with that environment where I am working, and I did my studies in the United States in Ohio. My father was a steel worker in Youngstown, Ohio. He was a refugee as well. And I enjoyed going to school in the Midwest in Ohio and I went through so many phases of changes in the United States, the tail end of the anti-war movement to the Civil Rights Movement, to the assassination of Martin Luther King, to the assassination of Robert Kennedy and the changes that the United States went through. And here we are now at the stage of the administration of President Biden. So I went through a lot, and I learned a lot. And I was influenced by, what I can say, maybe the positive things in this environment and I tried to stay away from the things that are not positive.
Ian Bremmer:
Now the United States, of course, is far from an honest broker when we talk about the Middle East. Israel is the strongest ally of the United States in the region. But you do see a lot of sympathy for, and identity with, the Palestinian community here in the United States, right? I mean certainly young people, and you saw it at campuses across the country, lots of supporters of President Biden are increasingly sympathetic to the Palestinian perspective on the war that we see in Gaza than you would've seen 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Even though this conflict is certainly not new. How do you relate to that?
Riyad Mansour:
I think that some, like me, we tried to influence previous big movements in the United States when we were students or activists during, let's say, the tail end of the war in Vietnam or during the Civil Rights Movement. But unfortunately, the social justice movement was not that much interested in that question, although a number of us. And some who, in the American society, tried to influence the situation. But unfortunately, we did not succeed that much. However, during the last number of years, a massive new coalition of movement was created in the United States, especially after Black Lives Matter and movement related to immigrations and Latin Americans. And students and campuses and universities, including Jewish students, and some trade unions, progressive ones, were able to build during the last number of years from the time of president, I would say, the tail end of the time of President Barack Obama, moving forward.
And that movement started becoming really powerful and it started influencing the United States Society in a remarkable way, similar to these huge movements before, including the movement to defeat the system of apartheid in South Africa. So when this movement was put in place and then this massive crime being committed by the Israeli occupation against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip, the movement was ready to embrace the cause of justice for the Palestinian movement. And that is the new thing and that's why the support to the Palestinian people, particularly those in the Gaza Strip, have been taken to a level that was not being able to reach before.
Ian Bremmer:
Now, you pointed out that you're a representative of the Palestinian state and the reason I didn't introduce you that way, of course, is because while the United States says that they want a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, they have not yet recognized a Palestinian state in a way that some countries around the world have, and increasingly over the last few weeks. I'm wondering, do you see the United States today as playing a constructive role in trying to bring about a State of Palestine, in trying to bring an end to the conflict that's sustainable for both Israel and the Palestinians? I wonder how you think about that.
Riyad Mansour:
I think that the United States is truly committed to a two-state solution. However, we have tactical differences. Not only between the State of Palestine and the United States, but between the United States and the great majority of nations. The 149 countries that have recognized the State of Palestine. And the tactical differences is the United States believe that the recognition and the admission of the State of Palestine should come at the end of the process. While now the great majority including Europeans-
Ian Bremmer:
Some Europeans. Including some Europeans.
Riyad Mansour:
Well actually growing number of Europeans.
Ian Bremmer:
Yes, yes.
Riyad Mansour:
And even Asians like New Zealand, Australia, Japan and South Korea who have voted those who are members of the Security Council in favor of the admission, Japan and South Korea, and the four of them in the General Assembly among the 143 that voted in favor of the idea that the Security Council should reconsider the State of Palestine for admission because it meets and it qualifies all of the criteria under Article 4 of the Charter of the UN. So therefore, the shift is taking place that we should invest in peace and invest in saving the two-state solution because this extremist Israeli government is so clear and obvious in destroying the two-state solution, not accepting the concept of the State of Palestine. So therefore, the largest number of nations are coming to the conclusion, let's invest at the beginning of the process. Let us recognize the state. Let us admit the State of Palestine to membership so that this way it will not be up to Israel, the occupying power, to determine the future of the two-state solution. But it will be the determination of the Palestinian people in exercising their right to self-determination. And the international community which was united on the concept since 1947 on the two-state solution through the partition plan.
So this shift is taking place. The United States is lagging behind. So that we're trying to find a collective way to convince the United States to invest in peace and to recognize the state, to admit the state so that the two states, equal members of the United Nations, to engage in negotiating all final status issues such as borders, Jerusalem, refugees, and so on and so forth. So therefore, this is the task before us and I hope that we can collectively succeed and find leaders in the US administration to start understanding and accepting this logic.
Ian Bremmer:
Now, more countries today support that position than did on October 7th. At the same time, there's been months of devastating war on the ground in Gaza. There's been the events of October 7th devastating for the people of Israel. Are we closer or farther away from a two-state solution today than we were on October 6th?
Riyad Mansour:
I would love to say that from my perspective that we should learn the lessons that these things did not happen from October 7th forward. These things happened for the Palestinian people for tens of years. Denial of their rights and denial of their natural and legal right to have their own state and to live in freedom and dignity. That was denied. Settlement the was swallowing our land. The annexation of East Jerusalem and other parts of the West Bank were threatening the concept of the two-state solution and therefore destroying it. So that the Palestinians—we had thousands among thousands of Palestinians that are still in jail and maybe a million Palestinians since the occupation started have been arrested. It doesn't make sense to try to accuse those people of being terrorists. They are “freedom fighters” for the rights of the Palestinian people. So then after what happened in October 7 and a huge crime against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip, particularly in which large number of children and women have been killed, 70% of the almost 38,000 killed so far and the 80,000 injured-
Ian Bremmer:
In Gaza.
Riyad Mansour:
And in Gaza and the total destruction of the Gaza Strip to go back to the situation that existed before October 7th, it's crazy. It doesn't make sense. What makes sense is to listen to this massive shift in the global picture in the United States of America, also among streets of all capitals, hundreds of millions of people are asking for the end of the genocide and of the exterminations of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. And to end the occupation and to allow for the two-state solutions.
So therefore, I think maybe-
Ian Bremmer:
Maybe.
Riyad Mansour:
Out of the tragedy and the ashes of the war that people to come to their senses and a forceful role by the US administration to move forward to say, “Enough is enough. Let's implement the two-state solution.”
Ian Bremmer:
I accept that there is more international interest, prioritization, pressure, and resource to bring the outcome that you are suggesting. I also see, of course, greater radicalization on the ground among the Israeli people since October 7th and among the Palestinian people since the war following it. So I worry, and I'm just wondering which of those becomes more important in either facilitating or preventing the outcome you're talking about.
Riyad Mansour:
They see that like the lessons of the war in Vietnam, the viciousness of the war reach an unbelievable epic before people coming to the conclusion that it has to end and then therefore has to have a political solution. And that's what happened. I believe that it does not make sense for the Israeli leaders to think that the issue of Palestine is a security issue. If you believe that way, then you think that you can eliminate it by power, by more army, by more tanks, more weapons. They tried that over the years. It did not accomplish the objective that they want. They couldn't negate the existence of the Palestinian people nor their right to self-determination and to statehood. What was not tried is to implement the global consensus on the two-state solution. Let's try it. Let's end the occupation. Let us have two states living in peace and harmony next to each other, to open new chapters of the relationship between the two people, which is different than the relationship of resentment and negations of the other and legislating in the Knesset that only Jews have the right to exercise self-determination between the river and the sea, which means that the Palestinian people do not exist.
Ian Bremmer:
You fully recognize the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state.
Riyad Mansour:
We did. And fact in late Rabin and Arafat signed on that in front of the White House during the time of President Bill Clinton.
Ian Bremmer:
And I'm saying that because I want to make sure the audience understands that you represent the Palestinian authority and that you have no connection with authority with Hamas and Gaza.
Riyad Mansour:
I represent the State of Palestine at the United Nations.
Ian Bremmer:
Of which Hamas plays no role.
Riyad Mansour:
When I say I represent the State of Palestine, the State of Palestine, many things and everything, all the Palestinian people at the United Nations. So I defend the rights of all of the Palestinian people at the United Nations. I do not defend narrow platform or rights of a political party. This is the same thing my colleague Linda Greenfield, who is the Ambassador representative of the United States at the United Nations, she does not represent a group or a party. She represent the United States of America. I'm similar to her in representing the State of Palestine.
Ian Bremmer:
I appreciate that. And I just want to make sure I give you the opportunity because you're here talking as a representative of the Palestinians, the Palestinian people, and you are discussing the context, the background, why we're in the situation we are right now. I want to make sure the audience understands that you in no way support or align yourself with the terrorist activities on October 7th. You wholeheartedly condemn those killed.
Riyad Mansour:
Listen, I said in the Security Council many times and the challenge, the Israeli ambassador to say what I say. I said I condemn the killing of innocent people regardless of their religion, ethnicity, or national belonging. Innocent people, innocent civilians should not be exposed to any harm. This is international law. Can you say the same thing that I am saying? He never said that.
Ian Bremmer:
And the hostages that have been taken should be released as the Secretary General of the UN has called for many, many times. You would certainly support that.
Riyad Mansour:
Not only that, but we legislated resolutions in the Security Council in the General Assembly calling for that, including the last resolution in which it calls not only for the release of the hostages but also release of Palestinian prisoners.
Ian Bremmer:
So talk about any influence you feel like your government has over what Hamas does and does not do with the occupation of Gaza.
Riyad Mansour:
Well, I think that the United States is very actively involved in negotiating with Hamas through Qatar and Egypt. And Israel is negotiating with them through Qatar and Egypt and that they reach some progress. They're still working on other issues. So those people of influence are engaged in this kind of process. Now for us internally, we need to put our house in order with all political groups. Once upon a time, Hamas won the election in the year 2006. And in a democratic way, if a political party, regardless whether you like them or not, win an election, then they're entitled to run the government of that state and we'll see whether the people will be happy with them or not. Here in the United States, President Trump won the election one time and he run the country, he lost the election another time. President Biden run the country and we are having election again. Whoever is going to win the election is going to run this country. Whether some in the society like the results or they don't, they accept the principles in the Constitution that whoever wants the election should run the country. Why isn't that not applicable to the Palestinian people? We accept the results of election in Israel.
Ian Bremmer:
I can see a couple of reasons. One is that when you talk to the Gulf states, when you talk to the Americans, when you talk to those that are trying to bring about a ceasefire, one of the few things they agree on is that Hamas can play no role in the governance of Gaza, in part because it would be an unacceptable security risk for the Israelis and in part because they see Hamas as a terrorist organization. So in that regard, it would be considered very different, right? I mean, when you're fighting a war that is specifically not about the destruction of the Palestinian people but is specifically about the destruction of that terrorist organization that again, that again won a democratic election, you're absolutely right about that, but it certainly makes the international community feel very differently about the outcome.
Riyad Mansour:
May I ask you a question?
Ian Bremmer:
Sure.
Riyad Mansour:
If that is a characterization as you describe it, then why are they negotiating with them through intermediaries? Why would they in the last resolution submitted by the United States in the Security Council appealing to Hamas?
Ian Bremmer:
To Hamas? Yes.
Riyad Mansour:
Okay.
Ian Bremmer:
You're saying that you can't negotiate with a terrorist organization? I mean it's happened many, many times historically so.
Riyad Mansour:
You can characterize anyone as you wish. Once upon a time, and in fact-
Ian Bremmer:
Yes.
Riyad Mansour:
Until this moment, as we speak-
Ian Bremmer:
Yes.
Riyad Mansour:
In spite of the fact that Yasser Arafat and Rabin signed the Oslo agreement in front of the White House-
Ian Bremmer:
That's right.
Riyad Mansour:
In the presence of President Bill Clinton, do you know that the PLO, which is the major grouping of political forces that leads the Palestinian state and leads the Palestinian authority, is considered by the Congress as a terrorist organization? Does that make sense?
When Chairman Arafat was a frequent visitor to the White House, and President Abbas was frequent visitor to the White House, still he was labeled as a head of a terrorist organization.
Of course, from our point of view, that doesn't make sense. Do you know also that president, the late President Nelson Mandela, when he came to the United States after he was freed from jail, he entered on a visa of waiver because he was a head of a terrorist organization? So these things happened in the past.
Ian Bremmer:
Absolutely.
Riyad Mansour:
And also let me conclude by a famous saying to the late Prime Minister Rabin. He said, “You don't negotiate with your friends. You negotiate with your enemy.” If you want peace, you don't be fixated on certain concepts and continue to say that I labeled them this way. Then what is the incentive for those that you are negotiating with them there if you keep labeling and giving them these things?
Ian Bremmer:
Mr. Mansour, as you know, the point that I'm making, I'm not trying to make a fixed point of international law. We're trying to talk about what the path of peace and progress is. When you mentioned someone like Mandela, when you mentioned someone like Yasser Arafat, you were talking about people whose political characterizations were historical and an effort to bring them into facilitate peace. Here we're talking everyone that is trying to facilitate a two-state solution is trying to move beyond Hamas and work with a Palestinian liberation organization.
Riyad Mansour:
Listen, you're looking at the representative of the State of Palestine.
Ian Bremmer:
I know. Absolutely.
Riyad Mansour:
I am man who committed all of my life, at least the last 20 years of it, if not longer for peace. I am at the United Nations. We are in the business of peace, not in the business of war. The first sentence in the charter of the United Nations, it says, "That we, the people, want to save the future generations from the scourge of war by resolving conflicts through peace." I am committed to peace. But ask the other side, are they committed to peace? If they keep labeling us the way they do to deny our existence and our national rights, how could we have peace? You have peace by accepting me because I'm accepting you. Let us work in ending the occupation and have a peace treaty.
Ian Bremmer:
I personally see a lot of people around the international community, most governments in the international community, that are committed to peace. I see an Israeli government and I see Hamas as not in any way committed to peace. I'm not suggesting that your Palestinian authority is not committed to peace, but I am suggesting that when you're criticizing the Israeli government as wanting to continue a war, we also recognize that Hamas has shown very little interest in ending the war.
Riyad Mansour:
Listen, you judge us, you judge me by my conducts at the United Nations and you judge the other side and their representative by their conduct at the United Nations. And the jury is our colleagues, ambassadors of other states. When we have 149 states recognizing the State of Palestine and the representative of the state of Israel, cursing everyone, accusing them of being anti-Jewish and antisemitic. What should you believe? My rhetoric or his rhetoric or the judgment of the jury of our colleagues who are from all corners of the globe.
Isn't it enough for people to see, for example, in hundreds of universities in the United States led by elite school such as Columbia demonstrating, you know, Jewish students, Palestinian students, Arab students, Muslim students, Black students, Brown students, all kinds of students for justice. This is a very elitist school in which if you have a record, you might jeopardize your job as a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, but yet, they are committed to justice to the point that they are willing to do that. Isn't there something different in the air? Shouldn't we be listening to them? Shouldn't we believe that they are doing that because they're genuinely committed to the principles of democracy and justice? And therefore, to change our conduct and views based on these new realities instead of being fixated in the views of realities of the past.
Ian Bremmer:
What do you think needs to happen to move from where we are right now to a period where we can look at progress? Because we have heard the Americans now-
Riyad Mansour:
That's a good question.
Ian Bremmer:
We've heard the Americans talking for months about a deal that is this close to being signed. One that they said that the Israelis supported, and Hamas refused and walked away. Now we have the Israeli prime minister saying he's changing the terms of what's he's accepting the deal. Well, how do you get there?
Riyad Mansour:
I think that the United States of America, with its massive influence over Israel and massive influence of states in the Middle East is capable of playing an honest broker. They need to be decisive, they need to be fair, and they need to listen to the sentiment of the American people in campuses, universities, in the streets, and to listen to the great majority position of almost everyone at the United Nations. Most of them are friends of the United States of America. They're not making this position because the Palestinian delegation is magicians and they are playing with their minds and making them vote the way they do in favor of justice for a Palestinian people. There is something in the air. People want justice for the Palestinians. People want this war and this conflict to end. People want the occupation to end because it's good for Israel and it's good for the Palestinians.
This is what's happening. We need courageous firm and wise men to say this is the time that peace is going to happen. In 1947, it was the United States who imposed Resolution 181, calling for partitioning Palestine into two states. We need something like that. That is enough. This is the time for peace, for the sake of Israel and the Israelis and for the sake of the Palestinians and for the State of Palestine.
Once we have this kind of determination, we will be closer to peace. And I hope that after this tragedy that we're going through that that moment will be arriving. I sincerely hope that the US administration, led by President Biden, to take these decisive steps for the sake of Israel before it is for the sake of the Palestinians. But it is also for the sake of the Palestinians.
Ian Bremmer:
The humanitarian crisis, of course, we've heard an awful lot about the Americans trying to stand up here, which has been beset with all sorts of technical difficulties, the ability to actually get humanitarian workers on the ground to get access to the people. We've heard about famine. We've seen all of the photos. Is the situation improving? I mean, you hear that-
Riyad Mansour:
No it is not.
Ian Bremmer:
More trucks are getting in.
Riyad Mansour:
No, because you see the Israelis, when they invaded Rafah, they took the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing. They destroyed it. And the Rafah crossing is a major crossing for thousands of truckloads that are lined up from el-Arish to Rafah, 50 kilometers, thousands of trucks waiting to enter the Gaza Strip. Now, after you enter the Gaza Strip, you need a large number of humanitarians to be able to distribute. The largest organization that has that capability-
Ian Bremmer:
Is UNRWA.
Riyad Mansour:
With 13,000 is UNRWA with their trucks, with their centers. And when Israel is saying, we will not allow UNRWA to operate. So then Israel, while theoretically they're saying, "Bring as much as you want of humanitarian assistance, but the Rafah crossing is not functioning." The crossing of Karem Abu Salem is not, which is the Israeli crossing, is not functioning. And UNRWA is not functioning. So what are they saying? What are they doing or not doing? They're not allowing humanitarian assistance to reach the people that they needed in the Gaza Strip. That's why we have a famine in the northern part. And in most parts, they tell people move to the south, they do. Then they attack them in the south. They tell them move to the center, they move. Then there is. It is beyond miserable, the situation in Gaza. It is a human tragedy. It is a war crime. It's a crime against humanity. It should be stopped. And we should have, as President Biden said, 600 truckloads daily minimum to enter the Gaza Strip. And you need those humanitarians, not hindered, not threatened, not to have 200 of them killed as in the case of UNRWA, to be able to carry that humanitarian mission, to distribute what is needed to all corners of the Gaza Strip. Let us judge things by action, by not empty words.
Ian Bremmer:
One of my concerns is that you have organizations on the far right in Israel that are not interested in having Palestinians in Gaza have humanitarian aid. They're interested in having them leave so that they can occupy that territory. You have Hamas that's not interested in making life easier in Gaza. They want the Israelis to be responsible for more humanitarian atrocities and more war crimes because it makes Hamas stronger. When you have the two principles that are adversaries that benefit politically from more crimes and more crisis, doesn't it make it a lot harder to resolve?
Riyad Mansour:
That is dangerous because in all those criminals in the past, including the Holocaust, they gave justification for their evil action. And if we descend to the logic of the extremist, those cruel anti-humanitarian-
Ian Bremmer:
On both sides of the conflict.
Riyad Mansour:
On both. And any side, okay? Then you will not be focusing on what needs to be done and solutions and humanitarian projects. We will be focusing on the political and ideological justification of those criminals and try really to give them leeway to continue doing what they're doing. There should not be leeways.
When we had the convention against genocide, in which it was agreed to in which Israel is party to it and the State of Palestine, anyone that with good intentions or bad intentions is committing things to that end should be held responsible and should be faced the justice for these crimes that we said in the past, never again. But when we say never again, never again by anyone. No one has a special way of committing it against other. Never again against anyone, regardless of who the anyone is. We should not allow genocide to take place against any people or any group in any place under the sun and to go after those who are committing these crimes regardless of their background and their history.
Ian Bremmer:
So you're there at the UN, a wonderful and unique place where you have access to almost 200 representatives of states around the world. You've said that you have some tactical differences with the Americans. We've gone through them. Who are the representatives? Who are the countries that have been most aligned with, supportive of your position, to bring about an end to this conflict?
Riyad Mansour:
Almost everyone. Even the United States, we agree in so many things. We disagree in certain things. On any resolution that is related to fairness and justice, to the Palestinian people, I would have almost everyone voting yes in favor of that resolution and less than 10 may be voting no. And those half of 10, half of them, or sometimes more, from the Pacific Islands that they don't have full freedom to run their countries. They're connected with the United States.
Ian Bremmer:
Well, you know what that feels like.
Riyad Mansour:
No, but that is not because-
Ian Bremmer:
I know. I know.
Riyad Mansour:
We are like brilliant diplomats. Although humbly speaking, we are great diplomats. We know how to conduct the business of justice for the Palestinian people at the UN, but also the great majority of nations. They went through their experiences of the pain that we are going through so they can understand our pain because they went through it. But those who are still determined to deny us our rights are no question about the fact that the United States is very powerful. And the Security Council is extremely powerful, it has a veto power. It stopped us from being recommended as a member state to the United Nations. 12 voted yes, two abstain, including the UK.
Ian Bremmer:
The UK.
Riyad Mansour:
Only the United States. Why do you stop in our way to be recommended as a state and to become a member state and to continue working with everyone in a peaceful way, in a civilized way, a legal way, in order to find solutions peacefully to complicated problems?
Ian Bremmer:
I see that the Russians have recently announced that they're willing to accept some thousands of Palestinians as refugees. Give them visa status there. Is that a useful comment? Is that a political move by the Kremlin? Can you tell?
Riyad Mansour:
What we need and what we're asking for as Palestinians, number one, is a ceasefire. Hundreds of millions of people in the streets are saying ceasefire now. We need to stop the killing. We need to save lives. Those loved ones that we lost, we cannot have them back again. They're dead. But those who are still alive, it is our duty to save them. We have almost a million child in the Gaza Strip. How do we deal with them after we put an end to this war? We have 20,000 orphans lost a total membership of their families. We have responsibilities to heal their wounds, to make them grow up as normal human being and individual. We need to stop the war in order to concentrate on these tasks and other tasks.
And then we need, in this process, to provide for those who are still alive in Gaza. All the basic elements of life, food, water, medicine, to reopen the schools, to reopen the hospitals, the clinics, to fix the street, to rebuild the houses. 70% of the dwellings and the houses either totally destroyed or damaged significantly. In the last resolution, we negotiated with the US delegations to have some changes and amendments by allowing everyone to return to where they came from, but not only to return to your destroyed house where you don't, then you will leave. But we said we want housing. Give them a tent, give them a trailer, give them anything so that they can stay there and begin the process of cleaning to get ready for the reconstruction.
Ian Bremmer:
Given how much, I mean the UN says 50% of housing has been damaged or destroyed, but either way it's a very high number. We see the satellite imagery, we see what's going on.
Riyad Mansour:
300,000.
Ian Bremmer:
Is it possible that when we talk about reconstruction, that some of the Palestinians in Gaza actually would be safer for a period of six months, a year moved into camps that can be made secure in Egypt while reconstruction is going on. Is that a plausible scenario or is that a non-starter from your perspective?
Riyad Mansour:
Listen, that we want our people to stay in our homeland. We lived the first Nakba. It was horrific. My parents and my relatives used to tell me they lived in valleys in caves before UNRWA came to give tents and to give dwellings and to give this and to start for people to live their new life in the new places and the new environment. We want to live in our own country in dignity and as proud people, so we don't want to leave. There are a number of people that have left who have resources, money, and maybe others, if they have the chance to leave, they might leave. But 2.3 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, all of them cannot be left unless there is a plan either to kill them or to get them out of that area in order to cleanse the historic land of Palestine from the Palestinian people. And that is an evil genocide thinking.
And there are those in Israel who think that way and they are in government and even they face justice in the Israeli court system who are ministers now as terrorists or supporters of terrorists, such as Ben-Gvir and Minister Smotrich. So we face these realities, but yet in the same time we do not give up and say that that is our future and therefore let's look for a place to run away from this situation. We are optimistic, we have hope, and we want to rebuild our life. We want to live in our country like other people. People are proud of their countries and our people are resilient. If we have peace and we live in our country, we could be so creative that we will be one of the most successful states in the Middle East.
Ian Bremmer:
Riyad Mansour, thanks so much for joining us today.
Riyad Mansour:
You're very welcome.
Ian Bremmer:
That's it for today's edition of the GZERO World Podcast. Do you like what you heard? Of course you do. Why not make it official? Why don't you rate and review GZERO World five stars? Only five stars, otherwise, don't do it. On Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell your friends.